Transcript 0:00 [upbeat music] Hey, everyone. Charlie here. We're running a quick survey. We want to better understand who our listeners are. Do me a huge favor and fill out that survey. 0:09 It takes under a minute, and the link is in the show description. This helps us make better content for you. Thanks a ton for listening. Link in the show notes. 0:19 I think that we as a industry have to figure out how to move past creating new casino games, basically, and into economic value, because that is what will drive the most activity and de-demand for block space on Bitcoin. 0:34 If we want to ensure that Bitcoin is valuable, isn't the path to ensuring success one hundred percent, doesn't that lie through increasing the number of transactions on the network? 0:44 It feels like the self-custody narrative in general is just getting pushed into the background. [upbeat music] Welcome back to Bitcoin Season two. 0:58 I have CEO and co-founder of Casa here on the show, Nick Newman. Welcome to Bitcoin Season two. Hey, hey. Thanks for having me. So, uh, Casa is a bit of a, I would say like a household name for the, the joke. 1:16 Um, how long have you been- Nice. Love it. Yeah, you've been doing that-- You've been doing this a while. What is Casa? Yeah. How long have you been running Casa? Casa, we've been running it since twenty eighteen. So 1:26 while it doesn't really feel like it, like, at this point, we're kind of, uh, an OG company in the Bitcoin industry, right? 1:33 Um, so we've been running it since twenty eighteen, and basically, Casa was founded to make it easier for people to self-custody their Bitcoin and to use private keys to maximize their own personal sovereignty and security. 1:50 When we started the company, we were just-- we realized that, um, there was, uh, you know, a lot of benefit from self-custody for people. 1:59 It, it brings out this whole new level of freedom around your money and allows people to have this monetary sovereignty and, and is really-- It's the first sentence of the Bitcoin white paper talking about, you know, peer-to-peer transactions without financial institutions. 2:17 And yet, there's this whole downside where self-custody, it's kinda hard to do. Um, if you lose your keys, you lose all of your money. A lot of people just don't wanna, don't want to mess with that, right? 2:29 And so we built Casa to make it easier for people, especially for people who are storing large amounts of Bitcoin, to do so in self-custody. There is this, uh, autonomy, freedom, 2:44 like, self-custody narrative, and that's the thing a lot of Bitcoiners like to push, myself included. 2:50 But you wrote a piece this past week called The Economic Argument for Self-Custody, and this is a different perspective than that. 2:59 It doesn't make the conventional argument for taking custody of your coins for freedom reasons, but it says that Bitcoin actually needs users to do that for the system to survive. And I will let you walk us through that. 3:12 We'll kind of walk through it linearly, but I wanna ask you, what about the timing and motivation for this article? So it's not a new argument, but why, why did you reprise it this past week? 3:25 So one of the things that I've been thinking about a lot lately, and I actually-- I tweeted this, uh, a few weeks ago, um, before-- uh, a couple weeks before writing this article, is that in our current environment, you know, 3:40 the, the discourse around Bitcoin is all around, like, how much money the ETFs are hoovering up. It's, like, record size growth for, for IBIT, right? Um, how much money everybody's making in Bitcoin treasury companies. 3:56 All these things are just about like, all right, people are making so much money with Bitcoin. And this is, uh, you know, not a new thing. 4:06 There's always-- E-every few years, there's this new narrative around here's how people are making all of this money, and even consistently through the years, even, even not during a bull market, the, the thing that people gravitate towards the most and the type of content that you see getting the most traction, whether it's on Twitter or on a podcast or whatever, 4:30 basically boils down to, okay, there's only twenty-one million Bitcoin, and the people that own Bitcoin are gonna be rich. And so all you gotta do to be rich too is buy Bitcoin because we are so early, and 4:47 you buy in now, there's only twenty-one million. Eventually, you're going to be, you know, one of the one percent of this future world where, where Bitcoin is incredibly valuable. And 5:01 as I was thinking about this, you know, it's like 5:04 we're always talk-- Like, a, a lot of the Bitcoin influencers, I think, talk about, um, you know, Bitcoin as this sovereign store of value, as this inflation-resistant thing, like this pure money, hard money, all of that. 5:20 It's like, realistically, if you just look at what really gains a lot of traction, it's like telling people they're going to make more dollars by investing in Bitcoin. That's what it boils down to. 5:33 Now, I think that's probably a means to an end, like, over a long time horizon. If Bitcoin is successful, then, like, you won't need to make more dollars. 5:42 Like, all of-- Actually, all of these things that, that people say are kind of true on a long enough time horizon. 5:50 But also, it just feels like in the short term, the way people are actually thinking about it is like, how do I make more dollars? Especially with things like Bitcoin treasury companies, right? 6:01 And so-So I was thinking about this. And anyway, back to what I tweeted a few weeks ago. I tweeted that it, it feels like the self-custody narrative in general is just getting pushed into the background. 6:15 And when I look around, you know, I'm looking left and right in our industry, and I'm like, "Who is there to make sure that self-custody is talked about and that people understand why this is an important thing?" 6:29 And it's like, basically there's Casa, and there's some other companies that are, that are approaching this in different ways. 6:36 But I think ultimately, like, the way, uh, in the differences in ways that we are going about it, the company that really, and the team that really has the best chance of telling that self-custody story and making that a thing on a global scale is Casa. 6:55 And so I was like, "We gotta lean in on this." And I tweeted that picture of the gamer, that, like, meme of the gamer, like, leaning forward, right? Yeah. It's like n-now is the time, and so we gotta lean in on this. 7:07 And so then I've written a couple of articles since then and, and this economic article, or The Economic Case for Self-Custody is one of them that came out of it, and it makes the case for if you want to earn more dollars with your Bitcoin, 7:21 s- uh, driving adoption of self-custody is a critical component of that. In this article, you have a line which I think 7:30 is very compelling as a mental model, and you say that Bitcoin is a monetary system, uh, as a mon- Bitcoin as a monetary system is built from the ground up to be held at the edges. What does that mean? 7:47 So when you think about it being held at the edges, you think of, think of a network graph. 7:52 You know, you've got, like, maybe these, like, centralized nodes, and then you've got a- all these other ki- Like, you've got all these interconnected nodes on the network, right? 8:02 When I think about Bitcoin being held at the edges, it means that Bitcoin is not being held in these big central nodes, like an exchange or a custodian, um, the custodians behind the ETF, et cetera. 8:17 It is pushed to all of the tiny little nodes all over the network. [clears throat] And those are the, those are the edges of the network. 8:27 When Bitcoin is held at the edges, it means that all of the individual people and businesses and all of that are the ones that are holding the Bitcoin and transacting on chain, right? 8:40 And this, this actually, um, benefits the Bitcoin network in two ways. 8:47 So the first is that, uh, and this is what most of the article is about, is that you, when you hold it at the edges and, and each of all of these individual nodes is transacting on chain, that creates transaction fees, which are good for Bitcoin security through mining, et cetera. 9:04 And then the second one is, is more about systemic risk of the overall system. And because Bitcoin transactions are irreversible, Bitcoin is a bearer asset. 9:15 It actually really benefits from a security perspective from being held at the edges too. Because if you s- if you centralize all the Bitcoin in one or two or, you know, a few exchanges, 9:28 then those become these really valuable targets to attack. Because if you can hack those targets, then you can steal a ton of Bitcoin at once. 9:39 And, uh, generally, like, i-if, if everybody's kind of using the right level of security within some band, like, it's relatively hard to hack a individual private key. 9:53 And so going after those centralized nodes is much more economically efficient than going after a ton of nodes all over the network that are each holding Bitcoin, right? 10:06 And so if you can compromise Coinbase, which holds two point eight million Bitcoin today, then you have a huge payday. But that payday also puts the, the Bitcoin network overall under a huge amount of stress. 10:21 And so you, uh, y-you call, if you're successful with that, you call into question the security of the entire network. 10:29 So if you push that Bitcoin out to the edges, you protect against that systemic risk, you reduce the overall systemic risk level, and that's more, that's healthier from a security perspective. 10:40 So, so back to kind of like the, the economic transaction value argument. When you h- push Bitcoin to the edges, it is acting in, as a peer-to-peer currency. Again, back to that first sentence of the white paper. 10:56 And whenever people move Bitcoin to exchange it for goods or another currency or whatever, whatever they're doing with it, they're paying that on-chain transaction fee. 11:06 And the more that people are paying that on-chain transaction fee, the more that the miners are profitable and mining incentives increase for people to mi- to, to spend more electricity mining Bitcoin, and that increases the hash rate, which increases the overall security of the network. 11:26 You make a few points in here, and, um, [clears throat] I'll, I'll, uh, I'll lob some layups, like, you know, counterarguments for you to respond to. But one of the points that you make is that, 11:39 um, if Bitcoin doesn't accrue, like, more transaction activity, like, we're at, we're, uh, over a hundred K, right? If you've been building your company since twenty eighteen, like, 11:51 twenty eighteen actually, the first part of it actually had higher transaction activity than today, if we look at, like, like, amount of transactions, fee rates. 11:59 Now price of Bitcoin's gone up, so the dollar value of each transaction is technically higher. But, like-Um, you, one of the points you make is that, uh, we do need miners to generate revenue, um, and we anticipate that 12:18 pr-probably having to come from on-chain fees. We don't know when. People will debate what timeline. But you make this point that if we don't, there will be strong incentive to figure out other ways to produce revenue. 12:35 And you make this claim, which I think is one that I often make myself, which is we could see a BlackRock-type entity, 12:45 uh, push for, like, inflation changes or twenty-- or the chain add new supply because we got to keep Bitcoin secure. Can you talk me through, like, the rationale behind this? 12:56 Like, um, uh, you say Black-does BlackRock start mi-start mining unprofitably out of the goodness of their heart? Um, no, they'll happily move on to selling a proof of stake network without a supply cap. 13:09 C-you know, kinda flesh this out for me. Like, this sounds kinda crazy, I think, if you've drank the Bitcoin Kool-Aid, that it's predestined. Why? I don't know. 13:18 How-- What's your, what's your rationale thought process here? So I'm not actually saying that, like, BlackRock will push for or, or will be successful in pushing for changing the supply cap or something like that. 13:32 Um, I'm actually saying something slightly different, which is that... Because, because it's, it's worth mentioning that, like, just because BlackRock owns a bunch of Bitcoin 13:43 doesn't mean that they have control nec-like, direct control over the rules of the network, right? But if you think about a future where Bitcoin transaction fees remain effectively zero, like they are today, 14:01 and the issuance rate of Bitcoin has been halved repeatedly over time, you end up in a situation where, you know, even if Bitcoin does increase in price quite a bit, 14:16 it can become e-uneconomical to, to mine beyond a certain level of hash rate. 14:23 And so there's almost this instance where it, you potentially get this memetic downward spiral about the security of the Bitcoin network, where more people start to call this into question. And, 14:38 you know, if you think about what BlackRock's incentives are here is, like, is their incentive really to protect the underlying fundamentals of Bitcoin and to, like, grow Bitcoin as this monetary hard asset, non-sovereign store of value or money for the world? 14:56 No. Like, their incentive is to make ETF fees. And so they've got other ETFs besides IBIT. Like, why wouldn't they just say, "Well, this Bitcoin thing was great while it lasted, but it's not really working anymore. 15:12 So check out Ethereum, this proof of stake network that doesn't have this poor incentive design. It's got, like, still very low inflation overall, and it's properly incentivized the, the security of the network," right? 15:27 You don't have this, this mining problem. And so, um, in that scenario, like, BlackRock isn't so much pushing for just changes to the Bitcoin network, they're just moving on. 15:41 And th-this part is part of this downward price and memetic spiral for Bitcoin. And so then in that situation, all of the kind of Bitcoin holders start to clamor for, like, "Hey, this is a problem. 15:56 The Bitcoin price is going down. We need to fix something here." And you have more of this potential for overall the, the community coming together and saying like, "Hey, clearly this didn't work out. 16:09 We need to add inflation or a small amount of inflation to the supply." Or, "We, we don't have to add inflation. We should just res-redistribute lost coins, add Satoshi's coins back into the, the mining block rewards. 16:25 Um, you know, f-take frozen quantum coins and add those back into the supply. This gives us another, like, fifty years at least of block emissions or whatever." And so I think that could be a possibility here. 16:41 And it's, it's-- The problem with that is, like, we have been selling Bitcoin to people primarily be-by its, you know, capped supply and by the fact that there's only twenty-one million. 16:53 And so when you start to break that promise in order to protect the underlying security of the system, then you introduce all of these other kind of narrative problems. 17:03 And I think Bitcoin as a whole never really gets back to the height of its, of its narrative, uh, power in that situation because you've proven you can change that underlying economics of the protocol once. 17:17 Why wouldn't you do it again? [upbeat music] Hey, Will here with Blockspace Media. Did you know that we have individual feeds for all our shows? 17:27 If you're watching The Mining Pod, Bitcoin Season Two or The Court Show, be sure to check out the individual feeds. You can find them on your podcast player of choice, whether that be Spotify, Apple, YouTube, etc. 17:39 Just type in Blockspace Media and you'll find all our shows pop up. Or just type in the individual show name like The Mining Pod or Bitcoin Season Two. 17:45 Be sure to hit that subscribe and give us a five-star rating so we can continue to bring you the best content in Bitcoin. You use this term 17:58 deaths or let's say memetic spiral, and that will sound like a lot of FUD that we Bitcoiners have refuted for years. 18:06 We've gotten very good at pushing it back, pushing back againstLike the mainstream media, like saying, no, there's not going to be a mining death spiral. But so this can come across maybe as FUD. 18:18 I in fact, like I sub-tweeted your article, and I made a point, and I got into an exchange with, uh, someone, uh, who I really respect in the open source mining movement, um, saying that, well, 18:32 you know, they were saying, uh, like Bitcoin has this like, uh, difficulty adjustment feedback loop. We'll get more efficient rigs. We'll better procure energy. 18:43 Like mining is the, the point is that, and, and with Bitcoin's price appreciation, like mining will have this balancing mechanism. How do you push back against 18:56 this in a way which differentiates from the conventional mainstream, say, mining death spiral FUD? Um, like what do you say to that Bitcoin, uh, argument? I, I think that that's entirely possible. 19:13 It's also entirely possible that the Bitcoin price goes up so much that we don't care, and like literally we've got until twenty one forty to run out the Bitcoin block reward and like figure this stuff out. 19:29 And if Bitcoin price goes up enough during that time, none of the transaction fees matter. 19:35 And I think people who, who kind of like make the other side of this case, basically, they kind of say, ah, like there's all these things that could happen that would make this irrelevant, so why worry about it, right? 19:50 Like we're gonna be, we're gonna be fine. And I can't see the future. I, I don't-- I'm not like some crazy, like, you know, economics person who's incredibly smart, like smarter than everybody else, uh, in our industry. 20:07 And so I'm not gonna pretend to have some great argument against that. 20:11 I think my only response is like, sure, all of those things could happen, but also if we want to ensure that Bitcoin is valuable, isn't the path to ensuring success one hundred percent through... 20:27 Doesn't that lie through increasing the number of transactions on the network? Because there's, there's one way where you can say for sure this problem will not happen. Not-- We're not hand-waving. 20:39 We're not like, you know, just, uh, guessing what, what things might happen in the future. 20:46 We are saying for sure this will fix this problem, and that is increasing the number of transactions on Bitcoin so that transaction fees increase and create the proper economic inc-incentives for mining. 20:57 And so I'm like, wh-why wouldn't we want to take that path? 21:01 So, uh, let's get into, uh, some of like, some of the, I don't know if this is thorny, but like there are these secondary sol- second layer solutions like Lightning and, um, 21:19 they are pretty core to Bitcoin's, uh, to our, to most people's view of Bitcoin scaling, faster settlement. We now have, um, things kind of in this category. You've got Arcs. 21:34 You've got people trying to build Bitcoin roll-ups. You've got various types of side chains and L2s. Um, and the view has been, well, okay, that just increases Bitcoin's net adoption and use case. They do 21:49 create transactions on Bitcoin. Um, I generally subscribe to this. But like how do you, uh, I don't know, qualify these things a bit for me? 22:02 Like, like are these things probably, are they a source of transaction, uh, activity over the coming years? Uh, is there a balance? 22:12 Do, do these things create a feedback loop where we have infinite people using Lightning and we have infin-infinite channel openings? Um, I don't know. 22:22 What are your thoughts on these, these, these things and their relationship to Bitcoin transaction activity? There's all these different use cases that you've mentioned here. 22:32 So Lightning is just purely transferring Bitcoin as money and maybe soon stable coins as money faster, right, and cheaper. Um, and so the game there is like you need to aggregate. 22:48 In order for that to settle to Bitcoin layer one in a way that actually increases Bitcoin layer one fees, 22:56 you need to exponentially increase the, um, the number of transactions that are happening on Lightning, because it's basically like batching all of them and then settling them to the main chain. 23:08 So you need many more people participating in that economic system. And I think that that is a, a real possibility, especially as, um, Tether gets issued on Lightning and all that. 23:19 I think that that could be a, a growing source of transactions. Um, Block has added the ability to receive Bitcoin over Lightning to all of the square terminals. 23:32 Like the right things are happening here, I think, in that area to, to grow that network. 23:38 And then you look at some of the other layer twos that aren't out yet, like that you mentioned, uh, or are, if they're out, they're like super early test net phase, like the roll-ups, like Arc, et cetera. 23:51 And I think those, those give you different things that you can be doing, whether it's, um, more programmable type stuff. 24:00 Um, you know, I think all the l- the, the roll-up type layer twos are probably gonna be going after borrowing against Bitcoin. 24:08 I'm sure there's gonna be some like NFT-like stuff happening too, whether that's ordinals or, or something else on the layer twos. So-You do all these things. 24:19 And what's kind of interesting is, like, some of the same crowd that seems to be not worried about... Maybe these don't actually overlap. 24:27 But anyway, there's this camp of people that's like, that's like all that stuff is, all that other non-monetary stuff is bad. And what I tend to think is, it's not necessarily bad. 24:40 It's, it's maybe not something that I participate in personally. I'm not, like, trading ordinals all the time. I, I just don't find it interesting. 24:50 Um, but I think that anything that we can do that helps to increase transaction fees on Bitcoin is good. And over the long run, the most economical use of, uh, block space will win out. 25:05 And so, if Bitcoin is successful at becoming a non-sovereign global money that people are using to transfer high criticality, uh, use case, um, money and, and transactions around the world, I think that people will pay more for those than somebody buying a JPEG. 25:25 And so I'm not so worried about the JPEG stuff. And I think that some of the other layer twos, if they get the right critical mass, will help to increase the transaction fees overall. And so I, I'm... 25:38 Like, it feels like we're just on the cusp of seeing some of those really come to market. And so it's gonna be interesting to, to watch those. 25:45 But the-- Ultimately, like with all of these things, um, I think that we as a industry have to figure out how to move past, like, creating new casino games, basically, and into economic value that we are creating for people, because that is what will drive the most, uh, activity and de-demand for block space on Bitcoin. 26:08 And so the more that we can be building towards that end, the better. So how do you... Let's get into how do we, like, respond to this, um, beyond just writing blogs. Like, how do you improve the self-custody landscape? 26:24 How do you prevent, um, too much, too many users and too much Bitcoin being, uh, uh, delegated to counterparties? How do you push back? Is this, is this just really an education or information problem? 26:39 Are there technical solutions? Is it all of the above? Um, like, how do we get more people to do self-custody? It's gotta be a, a multi-pronged plan here, right? 26:53 And this is, this is part of why I'm trying to write things like this and talk about this more, is it's gonna take more than just Casa. 27:03 But we at Casa are going to be continue being loud about this and trying to push the industry forward and lead the industry in this, but it's gonna take more than just us. 27:15 I think the things that you really need in order to do this, to, to make this a real thing, to, to continue pushing Bitcoin to the edges of the network, is you need the right education and narrative. 27:29 So people have to understand what self-custody is, why they might want the, the freedom and autonomy that self-custody brings, why the security of self-custody is better, why the overall systemic risk profile is better for Bitcoin if more of it's held in self-custody. 27:47 There's a lot of different, like, education and, and s- just pure storytelling reasons that, 27:54 uh, just like we effectively memed the, the twenty-one million inflation resistance into the public consciousness, like, we should be able to do the same thing around the sovereignty that self-custody gives you. 28:07 But then you kind of have to back that up with a product and tools that are safe to use, that are easy to use, and that help people feel comfortable in self-custody. 28:19 Because one of the things that we hear a lot at Casa is, like, we'll be talking to people who, um, don't self-custody today, and they're like, "Yeah, I've been thinking about doing it, but I've just... 28:31 It's always sounded kind of complicated," or, "It's always sounded, like, a, a little bit scary. I don't want to lose my key and lose all of my money," right? And so this is a very legitimate fear of people. 28:46 Nobody wants to be in a situation where if they make a mistake, they lose all of their hard-earned savings that they've potentially been building for decades, right? So, um, you can't just tell the story. 29:00 You need the products to back it up. And then I think there's this whole other... And so Casa's focused on both of those things. Then I think there's this other bucket of things too, which are like, 29:13 can we build things that you can really only do with self-custody? Like, are there, are there things that self-custody enables you to do that using a custodian does not? And 29:27 if we can make that more tangible for people, and maybe some of that comes through some of the, the layer twos or some of the other thing builders that, uh, are working on Bitcoin, like, 29:38 there could be a really compelling driver for self-cust-custody adoption that comes out of that movement too. Um, so I think there... 29:45 It's like, it's gonna take a real village here, and we're trying to l- to lay down the tracks, show the path for people, and I hope that people will follow and, and not get too lost in this current, uh, narrative and excitement and hype bubble around Bitcoin treasury companies and, like, taking... 30:08 Because the Bitcoin treasury companies are, are, they're all taking Bitcoin and just sticking it into custodians, and they are acquiring a ton of Bitcoin and sticking it into custodians, right? 30:18 So it's pulling it away from the edges actually and, and putting it into centralized nodes. 30:23 And so I hope that people don't getToo wrapped up in that narrative and that, that we continue to help educate, help build in a way that, uh, makes the overall system safer and ensures that on a long enough timeframe, we are creating a sound, uh, Bitcoin network, both economically and from a systemic security perspective. 30:49 I had your co- Casa co-founder, Jameson Lopp, on here a few months back, um, talking on ossification of Bitcoin, 31:00 and we at Blockspace have done a couple conferences on, like, entertaining discussions, deep technical dives, proposals, what Bitcoin can look like going forward. 31:12 Where are you on these topics and how do they fit into this self-custody narrative? Like, there's the covenants discussion. Are these a, a step in the right direction? 31:22 What are your thoughts on, like, the level to which Bitcoin as a network can change or evolve or improve the protocol to improve the self-custody direction you talk about? Yeah, I think that, that goes into, um, 31:39 like, giving builders the tools to make safer self-custody products and simpler self-custody products. 31:48 Like, today, if you wanna to self-custody in, like, a safe way or you're generally, like, using hardware wallets, you're, you're doing multisig with Casa, you-- so you've got multiple keys that give you resilience. 32:04 And one of the things that I like about Covenants is just that they actually give Casa more tools to build a very safe and simple way to self-custody for most people that then allows them to have, you know, not, not have to mess with as much setup and a- as much, many different devices to, like, manage things. 32:28 And I think that there's some, some really interesting capabilities that Covenants open up from a security perspective overall. And you look at... 32:37 So you look at Covenants, you look at some of the other potential upgrades that people have been talking about that just give you a little bit more, kind of ability to use arbitrary information as part of your overall Bitcoin, um, transaction that I think, like, this gives you... 32:57 It just gives us more tools to build great experiences for people. 33:00 So I'm sure Jameson talked about this too, but, like, we would love to see some of these upgrades getting through in Bitcoin because it just lets us build better products for people. That doesn't mean go ham. 33:14 You know, I, I don't think we should, we should, like, put Turing completeness into Bitcoin, for example. Like, save that for a layer two roll-up or something. 33:23 But, like, I think that we have a, a general community consensus, um, that covenants and some of these more restrictive contracts can, can be very useful for Bitcoin. So where do people go to follow this discussion? 33:39 If someone's interested in this, maybe they have a surface level understanding, where do you recommend they go? 33:45 Feel free to plug Ca- Casa's got a great blog, great resources, but I don't know, like, you know, I hope this becomes a conversation going forward. How do people follow along and participate? 33:56 So, um, I think the same, generally the same place that people talk about Bitcoin and everywhere. You know, it's, it's X, it's, like, Telegram groups. 34:05 Uh, so you can follow me on X, @nnewman, and then Ca- our Casa account is @casahodl, H-O-D-L. 34:14 And then, um, our blog is blog.casa.io, and we, um, basically we write about things between, like, the blog, my Twitter, Jameson's Twitter, and that's where we're having the conversation. 34:31 So, um, and then obviously getting to come on here and, and other podcasts like this and talk about it is great too. 34:37 But yeah, this is a, um, I think it's a, an important, really important subject for the long-term health of Bitcoin. So, um, please reach out if you wanna continue this conversation. 34:50 Like, this is, in, in our view at Casa, this is the thing that we are focused on most. How do we drive adoption of self-custody in Bitcoin? 34:59 Because that is best for the long-term health of Bitcoin in, in the both short-term and very long-term. Nick, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Really enjoyed this. 35:11 Uh, I also look forward to a more self-custodial future. As much as I will meme and shit post about paper Bitcoin, 'cause it's fun, number goes up. That's-- It's fun to make money. That's not why I'm here. 35:26 I would've given up a long time ago. Um, thank you so much for coming on Bitcoin Scale-up. And I think a lot of people, uh, uh, that's-- and I think that's a lot of people's view. Yeah. 35:35 So let's just remember that and get... Remember to kind of bring that view back to the forefront to at least match the same level of, like, you know, talking about number go up. That's, yeah, that's my view too. 35:47 Nick, thank you so much. Thank you. Good to have you around. Thanks, Charlie. [upbeat music] Hey, everyone. Charlie here. We're running a quick survey. We want to better understand who our listeners are. 35:58 Do me a huge favor and fill out that survey. It takes under a minute, and the link is in the show description. This helps us make better content for you. Thanks a ton for listening. Link in the show notes. 36:08 [upbeat music]
