Transcript 0:00 I actually look at most meme coins as companies. 0:02 So there's like an entity or group of people behind it who have a lot of capital, and they're essentially working with centralized exchanges to essentially promote and increase the value of this token, right? 0:17 And that means they're working with market makers, and they're paying centralized exchanges listing fees, okay? And that's basically a business deal that goes down. 0:26 If you are a meme coin like Dog that is fully decentralized, there is no, like, business deal going down. It's more like, 0:34 is the incentive alignment for an exchange to have our community excited to go trade this token on their exchange, but we can't offer them this fat twenty-five million dollar listing fee that it's a reaction to the fact that, you know, should meme coins really be this, like... 0:52 Like, should meme coins have a company behind them? Like, this is all very weird. This is not how I think about meme coins. I actually think it's kind of, like, cringey and weird that there's a team behind meme coins. 1:02 And I just want meme coins to be just these, like, fun things that exist on the internet and have no team, and they're just art. 1:42 Welcome back to Bitcoin Season Two. Bitcoin Season Two showcases new ideas from new voices and have new conversations on Bitcoin. 1:51 It's the, uh, cultural and the technical blended together, um, new things happening on the oldest blockchain. 1:58 Bitcoin Season Two is produced by Blockspace Media, an independent B2B Bitcoin media company focused on the business of Bitcoin block space. Make sure to check out our other shows, The Mining Pod and The GWRT Show. 2:12 Hit up our newsletter, comes out on Mondays and Fridays, and go to our website, blockspace.media. So I've got Leonidas Ogi on the show today. 2:22 You may know him as the guy who flipped the swan Twitter spaces, the number one ordfluencer, and now, I believe, rune master. 2:31 So Leonidas is leading a Bitcoin meme coin zeitgeist in campaigning for the biggest meme coin to be on the biggest blockchain, that's Bitcoin. So I'm gonna bring up Leonidas. Welcome to Bitcoin Season Two. Hey, Charlie. 2:46 It's an honor to be here. Thanks for having me. Yeah, so you're mainly on Twitter spaces, hundreds, thousands of hours by now. This is your bread and butter, but we've got you on a podcast. 2:56 I wanna just, like, jump right into the bull case for Dog. You don't have to explain what a meme coin is. I want you to take the gloves off and just give me the bullish case for Dog. You've talked a lot about this. 3:10 Why is Dog poised to become the biggest meme coin on Bitcoin? Yeah, it's a great question. So the... There's two pieces to the bull case, right? One, we're harnessing the power of Bitcoin. 3:23 So all of these other meme coins on other chains, all of the top ten meme coins, they're on these test net chains, right? So, you know, they have a smaller amount of liquidity. 3:34 They do have some things going for them, mostly around the longevity of the, the time that this ecosystem on these other chains has gotten to build up. But ultimately, Bitcoin now has that ecosystem. 3:46 And while we are newer, because we have this chain with one point four trillion dollars of liquidity, the experiment seems to be going very well. 3:53 Like, the demand to do this activity on Bitcoin, to trade meme coins, to trade JPEGs, is very high. 3:58 It's been very well-received, and we have to build up infrastructure in the space to support this new activity that's happening on Bitcoin. 4:05 So ultimately, the bull case for Dog is that, look, like, of course, the, the meme coin, the dog coin of Bitcoin should be worth more than the dog coin of Solano or Ethereum or something. 4:17 Like, th-this is a fairly straightforward bull case. And then the other aspect to it is how Dog was distributed. So essentially, about four months ago, 4:27 I tweeted out this idea to have a hundred percent volunteer initiative to do an airdrop to all of the OGs in the ordinal space. 4:35 Like, all of these people who showed up, who, you know, fought this culture war against the laser eyes, who told the Ethereum maxis that they were wrong, that we can do this stuff on Bitcoin, and we succeeded. 4:48 And Dog is sort of the celebratory... It's us saying, like, "Look, let's do something fun for ourselves. We all got to this point. Let's do an airdrop." 4:57 So we airdropped to a hundred and twelve thousand wallets from twenty twenty-three who showed up and participated on chain in the ordinals protocol. 5:05 And then, you know, now that everybody has their, their Dog, it's almost a billion-dollar token. Like, it, you know, it was a truly free and fair airdrop. There was no special team allocation. There was no, 5:20 you know, raising money in an ICO, none of this stuff. Like, we tried to do it the Bitcoin way. 5:25 Ev- Like, lots of people in the space came together, donated capital, engineering resources to make this happen, and we've accomplished, you know, a lot a-and done the largest airdrop in, in Bitcoin's history, I guess, unless you, unless you count, like, hard forks. 5:40 You know, it, it was the largest on-chain airdrop in Bitcoin's history at the time. 5:43 And, you know, we're very proud of that, and we're super, super excited to basically have a foundation of a meme coin that isn't just this kind of, like... 5:55 I like to just call it, like, a rigged game or something where there's this team or founder or group of market makers or KOLs or whatever it isThat created this thing, and their goal is to basically increase the price to as much as possible, and then sell it. 6:11 This is obviously how that works, and we're doing the exact opposite here. So I earned my Dog. I have about $40,000 worth of Dog, like everyone else who earned their Dog, but ultimately, this token isn't ruggable, right? 6:25 Like the term rug means is the founder gonna screw you over and dump on your head, right? And, you know, the answer is it's not ruggable because I don't hold the tokens to rug you with, right? 6:37 So we just put this out there, and it's this very decentralized meme coin community, and it's, it's been very fun. And I, I think that's just very... 6:45 For the people who've been in this space for a while and traded meme coins, I think they understand that that free and fair distribution was very special. Yeah. So those are the... Yeah. Yeah. I, y-you... 6:56 That, that's such a very concise way of putting it. 6:59 And I think for the listener or watcher here, just for context, like, it's poetic the way, like, you put this, Leonidas, because right now as we're recording this, Roaring Kitty is still live streaming- [laughs]... 7:10 his return back to [laughs] YouTube, the public eye, and it, it seems to me like no accident that this is meme coin season. 7:19 You have venture capital writing threads about how they're going to invest in meme coins, but this is very different, as you describe, from what you gu- from what you guys are doing. Um, I will... 7:31 I'll probably have you give some background on, like, maybe some of the interesting execution side. There's a, a lot of folks who donated resource and time. 7:39 I think it can't be understated the develop- the developer skill involved under the hood, but I kinda wanna just go back to, like, currently, where does Dog stand? You say about close to a billion dollars. 7:51 By the time this comes out, it could have crossed a billion, and we could be in a massive marathon long Twitter space. But where does Dog stack up right now i- across the meme coin ecosystem, across all chains? 8:06 Yeah, it's a great question. So right now we're sitting at about 105 of all cryptocurrencies, and we're the number eight meme coin, so I would say performing pretty well for a token that's only about five weeks old. 8:22 And we'll see. You know, we'll see. These things are very volatile, so we can drop, we can go up, but yeah, it's, it's quite... 8:29 It's been quite an exciting, just, you know, violent upward trajectory for five weeks straight essentially. Yeah. And you've even... 8:37 You've had a lot of, like, very interesting tweets which some I think are original, some are interpretations or extrapolations, but I remember you tweeted something like a tier one, tier two, and three meme coins. 8:47 I thought this was an interesting way of framing it, and it also gives you kind of a, I, I don't wanna s- well, almost like a roadmap or a playbook. 8:55 Like, how do you ascend this, you know, this, this, these levels to becoming the number one meme coin where in the same way that I can tell my mom about Doge, maybe one day she will ask me if I've ever heard of Dog Go to Moon. 9:10 [laughs] Right. Yeah. Look, so currently the meme coin mar- like, there's literally millions of meme coins, obviously, right? But in the upper echelon of the meme coin market, I would say there's three tiers, right? 9:24 So you've got your Doge, which is, like, kind of the OG meme coin, 2014. And then you've got Shib, which is just the dog coin. It's like the Doge of Ethereum. 9:35 And then you've got this token, Pepe, which is essentially the 2023-2024 cycle's chosen ETH token, right? And then you've got this tier two. This is quite a, quite a rung down. 9:46 You know, we're talking, like, two, $3 billion market cap now, and two of these are Solana. So, like, Solana's the rising meme coin blockchain. 9:54 You've got WIF and BOK over there, and then also Floki is kind of like a Shib derivative on Ethereum. [laughs] And then I, I love imagining that, like, some of your, like, really hardcore, like- I, I invite you. 10:05 I, I'm, I'm trying to hype you up here because, like- [laughs]... the listeners this, like, they may just brush 'em off, but, like- Yeah... this is real economic activity. 10:13 I think it's really important to, like, talk about this. I... Yeah, so I'm endorsing you trying to frame it like this here. Yeah. Look, it's a $100 billion asset class. 10:22 Like, you can think it's stupid, but the reality is, like, people are making a lot of money, and it is a, it's effectively an extremely fun game that people are playing. 10:30 So look, tier three, you got Brett, BOME, and Dog, and Dog is in that tier three. And, and basically what's unique about Dog is that because we don't have a team treasury, you know, we can't pay market makers. 10:44 We can't pay for listing fees, so it's harder to get on the centralized exchanges. 10:50 That said, we already have gotten some great listings, and we're, we're really trying to strive for the, the, like, tier one, the, the top five or six centralized exchanges in the world to list Dog Spot, right? 11:00 And we're the only token on this list that doesn't have that, right? That's, like, why... 11:06 That, that's, like, why a lot of people are bullish on Dog in the short term is that, okay, like, Dog is now in the upper echelons of meme coins, but it doesn't have the liquidity that these other tokens have. 11:16 So it's like we're fighting with our hands behind our back. We wanna see Dog put in the arena on Binance next to all of these other tokens, then we'll see what happens, right? 11:25 So I think people are, a lot of people are waiting for that, that liquidity and, and that, you know, order of magnitude and then increase of number of people who can just go click buy on a token, right? 11:35 We need that for Dog, right? It doesn't have that right now. These other tokens do. 11:39 So we're at a significant disadvantage, and if we do get that, a lot of people believe that we'll kinda move up to the tier two group of tokens. Yeah. 11:47 And I, I wanna double click on, on what you mentioned here about exchange listings 'cause I think maybe the average person who doesn't study meme coins all day is not familiar with the reality of how a token goes from this either on-chain contract or kind of fungible token standard to being listed on one of these large centralized exchanges with a lot of liquidity like Binance or Coinbase.It is not straightforward. 12:12 Can you walk me through this? You've talked a lot about this in spaces, but I kinda want you to reprise this. There's often some, an ask involved too. Yeah. So there's, there's a couple angles to this. 12:25 So it is very much for most meme coins, I actually look at most meme coins as companies. 12:30 So there's, like, an entity or group of people behind it who have a lot of capital, and they're essentially working with centralized exchanges to essentially promote and increase the value of this token, right? 12:45 And that means they're working with market makers, and they're paying central, uh, c- centralized exchanges listing fees, okay? And that's basically a business deal that goes down. 12:56 If you are a meme coin like Dog that is fully decentralized, there is no, like, business deal going down. It's more, like, 13:04 is the incentive alignment for an exchange to have our community excited to go trade this token on their exchange, and then, you know, they'll earn, they have a taker fee or a maker fee, they'll make a little bit of money on it. 13:16 But we can't offer them this fat $25 million listing fee that they're used to for some of these top meme coins when they get listed. So it's a little bit of a, a unique dance that gets played there. 13:26 But you really should get, get rid of this idea of most meme coins just being, like, a silly, cute little dog. No. Like, there are... These things are, like, 13:36 very much legit businesses, and it's sort of why Dog was created. It's a reaction to the fact that, you know, should meme coins really be this, like... Like, should meme coins have a company behind them? 13:50 Like, this is all very weird. This is not how I think about meme coins. 13:54 I actually think it's kind of, like, cringey and weird that there's a team behind the meme coins, and I just want meme coins to be just these, like, fun things that exist on the internet, and have no team, and they're just part of the ether, and that's, I think, how it should be. 14:08 And I wanna make sure that that's the culture here on Bitcoin, and that we don't have people coming and doing ICOs for meme coins. I think that would be not great. 14:16 So that's, that's part of the reason why Dog was created. Yeah. It's... I would... Yeah. You know, you, you describe this landscape. I think it's a, it's a fair and accurate characterization. And 14:28 we, you know, we see kind of a market rejection. If we look at... 14:30 If we wanna look across broader crypto and, and reflect on the sins of last cycle, you see a market rejection, even at the retail user level, pretty much of the, for, like, the smart crypto people, the low float, high fully diluted value, like, uh, token. 14:47 Which is- Right... you release a small percentage of it, and the rest of it's held and allocated to early backers or some kind of company or entities. 14:58 And so they can inflate the price, and then sell into that, that buyer's market. But meme coins are pretty much a flat rejection of that. 15:06 But it, you know, it's interesting we still see some of the mechanics in meme coins. I... There still is demand for some of these. And we, you know, we see this even in the, the, at the protocol layer of runes. 15:16 Like, Casey has designed it such that if someone wishes to pre-mine a certain percentage of the rune, they can do this. When they launch that rune ticker, you can have some kind of pre-mine. 15:28 There's a few schemes like that. Do you... You know, when you, when you talk about how Dog is, has a very different approach, and I, and I consider that the reality is that the meme coin landscape is 15:41 all across this spectrum of pre-mine to low float, high FDV equivalents. Um, like, do you think Dog competes directly against those, or are we competing orthogonally? Like, what is, it... 15:56 How competitive is this landscape right now? [laughs] So there's five dog coins above us, and we are directly competing with those five dog coins. Literally, this is not, this isn't... You do not need to overthink this. 16:09 Like, CoinMarketCap is the leaderboard, the price is the points in the game, and you're trying to get to the top of the, of the leaderboard on CoinMarketCap. 16:19 And, like, right now there's some dogs in front of us, and I think, I think there should be no, no... Like, Dog should not be bowing to any other dog coin. 16:31 You know, Dog is the one true dog coin on the one true blockchain, and I think, like, really that's, that's fundamentally what we have going for us. 16:38 It's like, you know, it's cool that a lot of people are excited in the moment about something like WIF, but, like, WIF is on a blockchain 20 times smaller than Bitcoin. 16:46 Like, I don't just, I don't think it has the fundamentals that we do at its core. And I think time will essentially... Time is on our side, is basically what I, I would say. Yeah. 16:58 I, I probably should have started at the beginning. Disclosure, I own some Dog. I own a decent amount of Dog. I've always owned Dog. 17:05 I want Dog to go to the moon just as much as Li- maybe not as much as Li Ni's, but- [laughs]... uh, quite a bit. So yeah, I do... You know, my bags are packed here. Like, I, I am the classic person who overthinks this. 17:16 I try to add too many variables and, and, and try to analyze it too much, which is why I don't really pontificate that much about meme coins. Uh, [laughs] I let other people do it. 17:25 You know, when we talk about barriers to, to Dog getting listed, there's the exchange listing fees, the game, like, the central group advocating for it. 17:36 But then we look at how meme coins operate on other blockchains, I think this is a very interesting topic to talk to you about here. 17:42 Other blockchains, specifically smart contract blockchains, are very easy to, like, spin up a meme coin and then have it be a very liquid trading experience from day one. 17:53 'Cause, like, the actual exchange of the tokens is facilitated much better on chain. Right. 17:58 But I wrote a blog piece for Blockspace Media last week on one of the structural limitations of the runes protocol, which makes it very difficult to, like, actually develop healthy markets on chain. We've seen this. 18:14 Now, it's hard to divide up the right pieces, you know, the right amounts of a rune. 18:19 Could you talk about-This current situation and then paths forward to improve the user experience here, to mitigate some of the friction points. K- kinda talk me through this here. So yeah, it's really interesting. 18:37 We use a UTXO model on Bitcoin, and, and DOG is on a protocol, Runes, that uses a UTXO model, and then these other blockchains use an account model. 18:46 And about in, I think it was, like, twenty twenty, this company called Uniswap invented this thing called the AMM that essentially allows you to have decentralized trading on a blockchain. 18:57 You no longer need Coinbase, you just decentralize trade. 19:00 This was an awesome innovation, and I think the, the critical component there that we don't have on Bitcoin is that you can, you know, buy or sell into this giant pool, and you can list or buy any amount, and it'll instantly be traded. 19:16 On Bitcoin, we don't have that. You're basically selling a little package of tokens, but you have to specify the amount to list, right? So say there's 100,000 DOG tokens, right, for sale. 19:29 Well, if somebody wants to come along and buy it, they can't just buy 50,000 of them. They have to buy the whole 100,000. So it creates this little mismatch from buyers and sellers that makes it a little bit more of a... 19:43 The user experience is just not quite as strong as just going, typing in how much you wanna sell. 19:47 You know no matter what, you're gonna be able to click buy or click sell, and it's gonna go through, and you're gonna check back 30 seconds later and you're good. We don't have that on Bitcoin. 19:56 People are trying to build it. I think my concern is that they're gonna build it, and it's gonna be a custodial situation. So, you know, I'm, I'm a little skeptical. 20:05 But ultimately, I think this is where the promise of something like Opcat is really exciting. 20:10 You can bridge these to an L2, and as long as you have trustless bridging, you can essentially have AMMs on the L2s and, you know, get a decent, get a pretty decent experience there like the other chains, but still inheriting a lot of the security and decentralization of Bitcoin. 20:27 I think that's, you know, still a little bit of... We got a little bit of time until these things come around. There's, there's some work to do until then, but that is sort of the, the answer to this problem. 20:36 Yeah, and one interesting observation I've had, I've had these in some side discussions with some more technical people, is that, you know, DOG's large user base and very, very large market cap now works in its advantage in that it's a bit of a flywheel effect where the market can almost respond. 20:54 Like, the more people you have, the more trading you have, the more liquidity you have, which means the more chunks of, like, runes you can have listed across the, the, you know, the spectrum of, of the current spot price. 21:07 So it actually becomes a bit of a reflexive, almost like a convex, like, flywheel of liquidity. 21:13 And then, I mean, if we compare this to the BRC-20 phenomenon, where BRC-20s had s- you know, have s- have, still have structural challenges to exchanging them. 21:24 But once they get listed on CEXs, then, like, volume takes off. But already got listed on Binance at a much lower current market cap than DOG is. 21:36 Maybe DOG [chuckles] goes much higher before it achieves some kind of tier one listing. Um, I wanna ask you about 21:46 one common narrative in the kind of post-Runes launch story, which is Runes came out the gate hot and then collapsed. 21:55 Did not die, but a lot of the observation was, and this is my take, is that this protocol did not take off in Asia as much as BRC-20 did. BRC-20 volume was largely driven out of Asia and China, and Runes were not as... 22:13 They just didn't click for some reason. But it seems to me that you, and DOG in particular, seems to have, like, crossed the Rubicon. 22:22 I don't know if you're seeing a lot of your, a lot of the people who interact with DOG in Asia or perhaps other parts of the world. What is your observation about, like, the current, say, landscape of who is buying DOG? 22:39 Is it just North Americans like us, or is it people all over the world? Where are the DOG people? So in general, the trend is you're basically correct. 22:51 Like, uh, Runes is a bit stronger in the West, and then BRC-20 is, is probably favored in the East still. 22:58 I think that really just has to do with the fact that, like, Unisat, who created essentially the indexing and, and built a lot of the tooling around this, was, I think, a group of Chinese nationals. 23:09 And then you've got Casey Rodarmor creating Runes, you know, in San Francisco. It's just two, two kinda different sides of the world, and, uh, I think it has to do with language barriers. 23:21 There's a lot of things that probably have to do with it. But I think it's just, it was happen chance. I don't think, like, the West specifically prefers UTXO model, and then the East prefers account model. 23:31 I don't think it's really anything like that. It's just how this evolved. But yeah, there is a very unique dynamic, and these protocols are, 23:37 you know, storing similar amounts of value and, you know, competing with each other to be the fungible token standard of Bitcoin. 23:44 And like, ultimately, my guess is one of them will emerge as the premier, and then the other one will kind of fade away into irrelevancy, to be completely frank with you. So we'll see. 23:54 We'll see what happens there, and I don't expect either side to go down without a really good fight. [chuckles] Ooh, that's a spicy take. 24:02 I've, I've, I've been using, like, the catchphrase, rising tide lifts all ships, but you know, we do see meme coins eat into each other a bit. There is, like, an intra-meme coin rotation you can identify. 24:17 Um, and I was doing some moon math 'cause, like, DOGE is at what? Like, 20, 20 some odd billion dollars, and it's not at a cycle high. You know, if we think that there is a hundred billion dollarMeme coin this cycle 24:33 and it might be DOG, like [chuckles] what are you doing not owning DOG? I... You know, I, to, to me, this is a very clear opportunity to speculate. [chuckles] Uh, I wanna... 24:46 Maybe I'll, I'll, I'll s- I'll stop there and not, not get too shilly. But I, you know, I enjoy the zeitgeist happening on Bitcoin. Can you talk to me just a bit about... 24:59 I, I just had a conversation with Dylan LeClair yesterday on, like, a, like, a broad Bitcoin cultural conversation. Really fascinating talk. Some shared reflections, how we've grown to view it differently. 25:10 You are one of the banner bearers of the new culture on Bitcoin. 25:16 For the listeners who are still listening who aren't really fully bought into this idea, can you kinda pitch me on why legacy Bitcoin maximalism is not the way forwards, and why this new personality of Bitcoiner is the, is the big top of funnel? 25:38 So, oh, wow. Yeah. [chuckles] There's a lot of ways to, to tackle this question. Casey would tell you that the, the maxi way was not getting the job done from a fees perspective. 25:50 Like, the existential crisis for Bitcoin is that the block, you know, rewards, the Coinbase rewards were just gonna go to zero eventually, and then Bitcoin has a massive security crisis. 26:01 And I, I tend to agree with that general line of thinking, right? 26:05 This halving every four years situation does not bode well for Bitcoin security, and I do believe that a robust fee market and demand for block space is the basically only solution. 26:17 I think it's kind of off the table to change Bitcoin's monetary policy. 26:20 So this is what we've got, and in the last five years, I haven't seen a single other approach make any sort of success other than, than this Ordinals, runes, DGEN culture. So it, it's, it's pretty much 26:36 having to sit back and be honest with ourselves. Like, I think the Bitcoin maxis are coming from a good place in a, in a lot of senses, right? Like, they... 26:45 Look, I, I joined and, and put s- have been here for 10 years, and I also was, like, into Bitcoin, and wanted and thought Bitcoin was, like, the, the currency of the world. 26:57 I think the, the assumption I made that a lot of Bitcoin maxis make that's incorrect is they assume it's just gonna happen very quickly, and unfortunately, the reality you have to 27:07 come to terms with is that Bitcoin is a highly volatile asset, not that different than a Dogecoin, okay? And you have to accept that people buy Bitcoin mostly as speculation. It's almost like a Dogecoin without the dog. 27:22 It's less volatile now, but it's still quite volatile. People are very excited about it going up to 100K more than they are excited about buying milk at the grocery store with it. This is fairly obvious. 27:32 I, I actually don't think there's really anybody in the world that's actually using Bitcoin as a currency. I think it makes for a really bad currency. 27:39 If you are trying to just, you know, pay your bills, take care of your family, cover gas, it, it would be kind of irresponsible to use a meme coin. That's a [chuckles] super high market cap to do that. 27:49 And, like, again, I, I do believe that Bitcoin is more like a meme coin than it is like a currency right now, and speculation and, and that is the use case for Bitcoin. 27:57 So if you can't come to terms with the reality of that right now, then it's probably not worth continuing a conversation. 28:05 But if you can come to terms with the reality that in 2024, I'm not talking about forever, but in 2024, the product market fit for this technology, blockchains, crypto economic networks, is speculation and the sky casino, the internet casino, and that's what people are doing here. 28:22 So you have to accept that that's the reality, and if it... That is the on-chain activity. That is the capital coming in. Then embrace it, okay? 28:30 Because you are onboarding people to your movement, and ultimately, look, the degens who bought Bitcoin back in, you know, 2012 and 2013 hoping it would moon actually helped Bitcoin a lot, right? 28:43 Like, they weren't using it to buy a currency, but they're the reason why we've gotten to where we are today, and I believe over the next decade or two, the speculation will just eventually send Bitcoin to $100 trillion market cap, and then all of a sudden, this thing is a lot less volatile. 28:59 It's, it's more like a gold, and people actually can begin to use it as a currency. 29:04 I just think it's, it's, uh, fundamentally flawed as a currency as long as it's moving more than 5% of value, changing 5% up or down per year. It's just, it's just not a good currency. 29:17 I think that's very insightful, and I've come to agree mostly with that. And it's interesting because I had a conversation with Casey in a previous interview where I say, "Do you, what do you think Bitcoin is? 29:29 Do you agree that it's a store of value?" And that's, like, a main talking point for a lot of Bitcoiners, and he said, no, he does not really think of it as a store of value. 29:39 He thinks of it as something which can become a store of value. Right. And this, like, idea, yeah, Bitcoin is a meme coin, is perhaps more accurate today than the prevailing maxi narrative about what Bitcoin is. 29:54 I think they like to describe what Bitcoin could become, and I, I would hope for that, but I think that's very insightful that you're [chuckles] realistic about the fact that all the shit's social consensus, and if we, and if, and if, and it does not pragmatically make sense to use it as a, as, like, a currency today, which is why the top of funnel has to be much bigger than it currently is. 30:20 So I really appreciate that. I wanna tie, I wanna wrap this up. 30:24 What are your last and final reflections on the current landscape, what's going on with DOGE, and then what do you hope the next, let's just say, what do you hope the summer looks like for Dog Go To Moon? [laughs] Well, 30:38 look, I, I don't know if I can speculate on the summer or any specific timeframes, but we are appearing to be in a large crypto cycle. Bitcoin is just almost at its all-time high right now. 30:51 If this is anything like prior cycles, the next, I don't know, like s- 12, 18 months will be crazy. There will be dips in it. It'll be, you know... 31:00 It's very hard to time the market, but trajectory like over the next 18 months, we're probably entering a big crypto cycle, and we have a huge top and bubble for, of these assets in the next 18 months. 31:12 And if that happens, I mean, look, meme coins are just gonna probably outperform everything, and it's essentially a leverage position on BTC, quite frankly, right? 31:20 If you're buying the number two digital asset on Bitcoin, and it's a me- and that happens to be a meme coin, you know, it'll probably outperform Bitcoin as we go up, and then it'll probably way underperform Bitcoin as we go down from that. 31:35 And that is, like, the only thing that feels, like, very clear to me. The exact timing of this summer or tomorrow, like all of this stuff, I have zero idea. Like, it's very, very hard to predict. 31:47 But I think we are probably in another massive crypto cycle, and that's very exciting. And having the number two, you know, 31:57 asset on Bitcoin be a meme coin, and then hopefully making this very loud statement to the rest of the space if we flip Doge and flip all of the other meme coins, that, look, Bitcoin is not just the store of value chain, it is also the degen meme coin chain. 32:13 Like, what's the point of Ethereum at that point, right? Like, you can do it all on Bitcoin. Why would you need Ethereum? So that's the statement we're trying to make. 32:20 I think the laser eyes, you know, would actually appreciate some aspects of that and, you know, we'll, we'll see what happens. I could also be completely wrong. 32:29 There could be another meme coin on Bitcoin that takes over. Like, I can't predict the future, but we're gonna keep doing what we're doing with Dog. 32:35 And I think ultimately, you know, as long as you have the long-term sort of mindset, you'll realize that if we onboard 10, 50, 100 million people to Bitcoin with this cute little dog in an orange hoodie with the Bitcoin logo on its chest, and that is what, you know, resonates with people, and then like the, the... 32:54 If that's what resonates with the masses rather than the sort of fiat collapse narrative, I think that's very bullish for Bitcoin, 'cause we're still getting them on Bitcoin. 33:02 They're still gonna have to buy Bitcoin to then buy Dog if they wanna trade it directly on Bitcoin. I think it's great for, for BTC, the asset, and the blockchain in general. And with that, that's a great mic drop. 33:13 Lee Jonas, thank you so much for coming on the show. I will wrap this up. Thank you for joining Bitcoin Season 2, new ideas, new conversations on the oldest blockchain. Bitcoin Season 2 is produced by Blockspace Media. 33:26 Hit the Mining Pod, the Gwart Show, and our newsletter. Make sure to visit our website, blockspace.media, and I'll see you next week. 33:34 [upbeat music]
