Transcript 0:00 You, you can pretty much invent meme coins every day, but with rare sats, there's, there's a fundamental analysis that, uh, buyers can do about, uh, rare sats, and that fundamental analysis is simply looking at what the guy is trying to sell you [laughs] or what the guy is trying to create. 0:22 And if it's not really that exciting of a story or that significant of an event, then you could... You can pretty easily sniff that, uh, it's not really a rare sats category. 0:37 So that's something really special about rare sats that I would argue no other, no other asset in crypto has. Like, you could preach utility. You could preach, uh, that you're creating a very nice new meme. 0:55 You can preach that you're creating a great collection of NFTs and so on and so forth, uh, but you can't really force a new category of rare sats, uh, in the market if they aren't rare, in fact. 1:12 [upbeat music] Welcome back to Bitcoin Season 2. I'm Charlie Spears of Blockspace Media. 1:27 Bitcoin Season 2 is about new conversations, new faces, and new topics on the oldest blockchain, Bitcoin. We cover Ordinals, rare sats today. We cover Bitcoin tech and Bitcoin culture. 1:38 I've got Queri, the founder and CEO of Magisats, a rare sats marketplace, and he is the champion of rare sats. 1:47 I think this is a really interesting conversation to have as the Ordinals market has quieted down over the past couple months. But I personally got into this whole crazy world of Ordinals because of rare sats myself. 2:00 I'm excited to talk about rare sats, and in particular, the design under the hood of how rare sats get into the marketplace and Bitcoin ecosystem. So let me bring up Queri. Queri, welcome to Bitcoin Season 2. 2:13 Thanks for coming. Hey, Charlie. Happy to be here. Yeah, so, uh, just quick little explainer about yourself, how you got here, and then where your role in the Bitcoin and Ordinals ecosystem is. 2:29 Yeah, so, um, the backstory is that one of my associates, uh, called me one night and said like, "Look, we got Bitcoin NFTs now." [laughs] So that was what, uh... 2:42 Like, that sentence brought me to Ordinals, and Ordinals brought me to rare sats. Um, that's in short how I got there. Uh, and with the rare sats, uh, there's a different story. When... 2:58 After the, after I got that phone call, uh, I, uh, started immediately inscribing some NFTs because, uh, with Ordinals, you got this craziness with, uh, low numbers, low inscription IDs. 3:13 At least you had that early on, so we wanted to move as quick as possible to inscribe something, preferably under 100,000, which we did. 3:24 Uh, and when we were s- distributing those, uh, Ordinals, at some point, somebody came in our Discord and said, "Look, you got 22 of the, of a total of 25 inscriptions that are under 100,000 and are on rare sats." 3:50 And I was like, "So what? What's that?" Like, these, these sats are not your regular Satoshis. They are special. They have a backstory. 4:01 And by pure luck, you inscribed, uh, those NFTs, uh, those inscriptions on Satoshis that were involved in the famous Bitcoin pizza transaction. 4:16 And I was, like, super surprised, so I started to dig in, and it was all downhill, uh, the rabbit hole since then. Fascinating. So, okay, so for the listener who, um... 4:28 I wanna make this approachable and digestible for someone who really doesn't understand Ordinal theory. 4:33 Maybe there's someone who knows that you can put JPEGs or NFTs on Bitcoin, but, like, they're not as familiar with Ordinal theory and then how we get this concept of rare sats. 4:43 So, um, in your words, like, how do you explain Ordinal theory and rare sats to the average person? All right. So Ordinal theory has two parts, in my opinion. Uh, the first part is 5:02 the part that concerns itself with Satoshis, uh, with giving them a particular identity and establishing a rule, uh, which they abide when they, uh, transact from a wallet, uh, to another, when they are transferred from a wallet to another. 5:21 Uh, the second part concerns itself with, uh, inscriptions and with attaching data to particular Satoshis. I would argue that the first part, 5:35 uh, requires some conventions that are more natural to work. So 5:43 we, w- we need to know that Ordinals theory is a set of conventions, and it's basically an off-chain indexer that just monitors the, uh, Bitcoin network, and it follows certain conventions. 5:59 But the conventions that are needed for rare sats to existAre easier to apply than the conventions needed to attach data to a particular Satoshi. 6:11 And ordinal theory gives us, uh, the following, uh, things about sats. 6:18 It gives them an ID from zero to twenty-one quadrillion, so basically each Satoshi in existence has a number attached to it, and it attaches IDs in a most natural order there is, 6:35 uh, which is first minted gets the first ID. Um, then it establishes a rule, uh, that they abide when they are transferred from a UTXO to another, and that's simply first in, first out. 6:53 So if a Satoshi is involved in a Bitcoin transaction and it's the first, uh, sat involved, uh, so it's the first one in the first UTXO from the transaction, it will be the first one that also exits the transaction. 7:11 So I would say that these two are the most natural laws that you can create, um, for giving an identity and tracking sats. 7:25 Like, if ordinals theory disappeared and was reinvented in fifty years from now, I would argue that the guy that wants to create identities for Satoshis would apply the same rules. 7:40 So that's one of the reasons and one of the arguments I will use later to emphasize why rare sats are so important. 7:50 The second part of ordinals theory concerns itself with, um, with attaching data to, uh, this individual Satoshis, and that's done through a convention. So that's in a nutshell what ordinals theory does. 8:06 [gentle music] Hey, this is Will with Blockspace Media, and I don't know if you heard, but we just announced the second edition of our conference series, OpNext, now to be held at the MicroStrategy HQ in Tysons, Virginia. 8:19 That's right. After the success of our first scaling conference at Fidelity last fall, we're doing it again this spring, April 11th and 12th, at the MicroStrategy HQ. I'm really excited for the programming. 8:30 We have various stakeholders, industry, developers, and Bitcoin miners present. 8:34 So join us in April for open, neutral, and honest conversation about the leading proposals and technical solutions that will scale Bitcoin to the next billion users. 8:44 No booths, no tokens, no shills, just Bitcoin and honest conversation. You can find tickets and more information at opnext.dev or click below in the show notes. 8:59 So, uh, so we number sats zero through two point one quadrillion, 'cause for the listener, twenty-one million Bitcoin, a hundred thousand sats per Bitcoin, or a hundred million sats per Bitcoin, two point one quadrillion total sats. 9:12 Um, and, uh, so- Yeah. I think you mistakenly said twenty-one quadrillion, but it's two point one. You are correct. Ah, yeah, two point one quadrillion. Whatever. It's a lot of Satoshis [laughs]. 9:24 I think more than most people can, like, wrap their heads around. 9:27 Um, so, uh, then we have this concept of rarity or rare Satoshis, and I think, um, a lot of people don't know, like, how we've figured out which sats are rare. And I think a lot of people don't really think about this. 9:42 They just kind of go, say, to Magisat, and they're like, "Oh, there's, like, these different categories of sats," like uncommons or sats which are used in the pizza transaction. But, like, 9:52 can you kind of explain to me some of the ways or what, what... How do we figure out what a rare sat is, and, like, what are some of the different types of rare Satoshis, and why are they rare? 10:03 I actually had this conversation yesterday with, uh, some investors that asked me the same thing. Um, and that's a very natural question. Like, what makes a sat rare? And my answer is that in principle 10:22 it has to have a story, a significance, and something that it's obviously separating the rare sat from the rest of the Satoshis. Uh, I would classify this rarity in different ways. 10:40 Uh, so for example, there's 10:43 historical rarity, uh, when a Satoshi was involved in a historical transaction, and it's quite easy to understand why these sats are significant because, for example, Satoshis involved in the first Bitcoin transaction ever 11:01 are obviously special. You, you don't really need to have, like, a certificate for all of them to, to know they're special. Uh, although it would be a nice idea to, [chuckles] to issue some certificates for them. 11:17 But, uh, they're obviously special because they have historical value. 11:23 Then you have, uh, aesthetic value, and the only aesthetics that can apply to Satoshis is the aesthetic of their IDs because that's pretty much the only property aside from, from name, um, that you can work with when it comes to Satoshis. 11:44 So if you have an ID formed out of only one digit, for example, if you have an ID with nine nine nine nine nine nine nine nine, uh, that's obviously interesting or special compared to other IDs. 11:58 Uh, then you also have emission rarity, which is 12:03 their minting position in the block.Uh, this is the first type of rarity ex-uh, explored by Casey directly in the ordinal theory, which says you only need the Bitcoin network to, to figure out that these sats are special because we have uncommon sats, which are the first one, uh, minted in a Bitcoin block. 12:28 Then you have rare sats or Rolodarmor rare sats, which are the first ones, uh, emitted after a difficulty adjustment event. And then you have epic sats, which are the first ones after halving. So... 12:43 And the legendary sat, which is a bit more complicated. I won't get into it now. 12:49 [laughs] You know, it's funny, in the legendary sat, that was, uh, I've been in Bitcoin for a long time, and one of the first things I ever asked Casey when I talked to him for the first time was like, "What do you mean? 12:58 There's this thing called like, like a cycle or like, uh," you know, uh, difficulty adjustment aligns on a halving, which if you're a listener, go read Casey Rodarmor's blog. We won't explain it here. 13:10 But anyway, keep going, Quarry. Yeah. 13:13 So, um, now, now that you mentioned it, yeah, legendary sats, um, are the ones issued after a halving event that also coincides with a difficulty adjustment event, which is, I think first time it will happen in two thousand thirty-two. 13:32 So they, they are a legend as of now. [laughs] Yeah. We have to wait several more years to get one of those. Um, so that's emission rarity. And 13:45 yeah, um, there are a couple more, uh, rarities that you could, uh, find. For example, um, if the ID is a mathematical constant, people are talking about that. Uh, if the... 14:02 So, so that, that could arguably be ID's aesthetic value, or it could be a new category of rare sats. Almost like, uh, like if you like the first fifty digits of pi or so- or the first, um, you know- Yes... 14:17 X number of digits. Okay, gotcha. Precisely, yeah. The first digits of pi, the first digits of E, um, and so on and so forth. The Fibonacci sequence, for example. 14:31 Uh, so yeah, those are the rarities, uh, the, the major rarities that, uh, are circulating today. And what's beautiful about, uh, rare sats is the fact that you can't really have forced narratives. 14:49 Like, for example, with meme coins, y-you can pretty much invent meme coins every day. But with rare sats, there's, 15:03 there, there's a fundamental analysis that, uh, buyers can do about, uh, rare sats, and that fundamental analysis is simply looking at what the guy is trying to sell you or [laughs] what the guy is trying to create. 15:21 And if it's not really that exciting of a story or that significant of an event, then you could, you can pretty easily sniff that, uh, it's not really a rare sats category. 15:37 So that's something really special about rare sats that I would argue no other, no other asset in crypto has. 15:47 Like you could preach utility, you could preach, uh, that you're creating a very nice new meme, you can preach that you're creating a great collection of NFTs, and so on and so forth. 16:01 Uh, but you can't really force a new category of rare sats, uh, in the market if they aren't rare, in fact. So, uh, you know, there's a bunch of these categories on, are rare sats, and you talk about it. 16:19 There's some other great voices in this space. Uh, certain, you know, people or accounts or projects have their own favorite, like, type of rare sat, or they kinda like brand themselves around it. 16:31 Um, but you know, for the listener, maybe there's a listener here who's like, "Okay, kind of understand this," but they don't... They're neutral on rare sats. This is fine. It's okay to have not a strong opinion. 16:42 But what I think is really interesting for maybe the more technical and engineering mind or maybe the business-minded person who's looking, I think there's a really interesting new, like, 16:52 industry emerging around the procurement and, like, delivery and, like, uh, exchange of these rare sats, which I don't really see happening in other parts of Bitcoin. 17:05 And I think this is fascinating because you're kinda like the, the signature marketplace and builder about this. So I wanna get into, like, what... Take, take me through the process of a Satoshi being out in the wild 17:20 somewhere on Bitcoin to getting to a marketplace to then, um, being purchased by a collector. Talk me through this, like, process here. All right. So a rare sat can be 17:36 in one of many places. So, uh, it can either be not created yet. So for example, each Bitcoin block creates a new uncommon sat. 17:49 If we're talking about the uncommon sat of block one million, that's obviously not created yet, and it will be created at some point in the future. Um, 18:02 then there are whole analysis that, uh, buyers can do about, uh, rare sats and-That fundamental analysis is simply looking at what the guy is trying to sell you [laughs] or what the guy is trying to create. 18:19 And if it's not really that exciting of a story or that significant of an event, then you could, you can pretty easily sniff that, uh, it's not really a rare SATs category. 18:36 So that's something really special about rare SATs that I would argue no other, no other asset in crypto has. Like you could preach utility. You could preach, uh, that you're creating a very nice new meme. 18:53 You can preach that you're creating a great collection of NFTs and so on and so forth, uh, but you can't really force a new category of rare SATs, uh, in the market if they aren't rare, in fact. 19:11 So, uh, y-you know, there's a bunch of these categories on, on rare SATs, and you talk about it. There's some other great voices in this space. 19:20 Uh, certain, you know, people or accounts or projects have their own favorite, like, type of rare SAT, or they kinda like brand themselves around it. 19:29 Um, but you know, for the listener, maybe there's a listener here who's like, "Okay, kind of understand this," but they don't... They're neutral on rare SATs. This is fine. It's okay to have not a strong opinion. 19:40 But what I think is really interesting for maybe the more technical and engineering mind or maybe the business-minded person who's looking, I think there's a really interesting new, like, 19:51 industry emerging around the procurement and, like, delivery and, like, uh, exchange of these rare SATs, which I don't really see happening in other parts of Bitcoin. 20:03 And I think this is fascinating 'cause you're kinda like the, the signature marketplace and builder about this. So I wanna get into, like, what... Take, take me through the process of a Satoshi being out in the wild 20:19 somewhere on Bitcoin to getting to a marketplace to then, um, being purchased by a collector. Talk me through this, like, process here. All right. So a rare SAT can be 20:35 in one of many places. So, uh, it can either be not created yet. So for example, each Bitcoin block creates a new uncommon SAT. 20:47 If we're talking about the uncommon SAT of block one million, that's obviously not created yet, and it will be created at some point in the future. Um, 21:01 then there are SATs that, for example, historical SATs, that are somewhere in circulation. And most of the time they are in a wallet that's probably not aware that rare SATs even exist. 21:18 And the third option is they are in a place, uh, in which they can be extracted from. So for example, these are centralized exchanges, bridges. 21:35 Uh, these are places where you could attempt to get that SAT out of there. And some of, uh, the v- the minority of the rare SATs are not in the wild, and we call those sequestered. 21:53 So those are SATs that are already found by, um, people in the market that are aware that rare SATs exist, and they isolated them, uh, in a small UTXO somewhere, and they're keeping that UTXO safe and not spending it on, on fees and, uh, transacting with it. 22:16 So, uh, the only place you can, you can get them from and bring them to the marketplace is this, this place where they are accessible, like bridges or centralized exchanges, or miners. 22:31 Miners can, can bring you rare SATs that weren't, uh, minted yet, and they mine a block, they isolate the uncommon SAT, and they put it on the marketplace. 22:43 But aside from that, you can do this thing that's called SAT hunting. And what SAT hunting entails is you gather whatever Bitcoin you have, you deposit them in an exchange, 23:00 then you withdraw from that exchange and get new SATs. 23:05 And why that happens is because, uh, centralized exchanges usually serve withdrawals from a, from a hot wallet and get her deposits in some user-specific wallet. 23:21 So they serve the withdrawals from a different address from the one in which you deposit funds in your account. So basically what you do is you shuffle your SATs around. 23:34 Like I come to an exchange with one hundred million SATs, which is one Bitcoin, and I get another set of one hundred million SATs. And I look, uh, basically I look what I got in, in this withdrawal from the exchange. 23:52 I isolate what-whatever I like. So it's like filtering for gold, basically, [laughs] filtering the sand for, for gold. Then I deposit the rest of the SATs back onto the, uh, exchange. So an interesting thing is, like, 24:11 you know, maybe you... 24:12 It's funny 'cause, like, you're, uh-Career, you're like focusing Bitcoin the past couple years, you've like naturally been pretty in tune with the, the world of coin control and like wallets being very attentive to which UTXOs you are sending and receiving, 'cause this is very core to interacting with the Ordinals ecosystem. 24:36 But, um, you know, I'll just tell you from, uh, firsthand experience, prior to Ordinals, like there was not very much attention to coin control across the Bitcoin ecosystem. 24:47 Um, but whenever you talk about like you are building infrastructure to like manage and, and like deliver these rare sats, uh, in a commercial level, like you have to build some interesting stuff under the hood and some interesting logic, which I think is not very well 25:06 understood [clears throat] by a lot of the Bitcoin ecosystem in- including a lot of like the technical Bitcoiners. 25:12 Can you talk me through like how Magic Sat in particular or just some of the like interesting like hurdles or challenges you've had to overcome, like in designing and managing the system which like tracks and delivers and coin controls UTXOs for rare sats? 25:34 Yes. So I think... So let's start from the beginning. The, the first thing you need when you create a rare sats marketplace is to identify which sats are rare. [laughs] So- [laughs]... that's where you start. 25:51 Uh, and what you need for this, uh, are s- sat intervals. So basically, um, if you agree with Ordinals theory and, uh, think, think of sats, um, 26:06 h- as having individual IDs, then you need to find these intervals that are involved in these special transactions. Uh, and also you need to establish the rules, uh, for emission rarity, for example. 26:24 So you know that, um, every three point five Bitcoin, um, three... Or, or is it, uh, three point- Three point one two five. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. One two five. 26:36 Uh, every three point one two five Bitcoin, there's a special uncommon sat. So you have to, uh, mark those IDs as interesting starting from, uh, this last halving. 26:50 And starting from the last halving, you need to keep in mind that, um, there's a different rule for uncommons. Then you need to go to collect all these sat intervals for these interesting transactions. 27:04 You need to n- you need to look at the pizza transaction, for example. Uh, you need to establish what sat intervals were involved in there. 27:12 You need to store them in the database, uh, and you do the same for all interesting sat categories. Once you do that, and once you have those, uh, sat intervals, then there's the very 27:27 tedious job of identifying, um, if an address has or if a UTXO has rare sats given the special intervals you already saved. 27:42 And that can be very, uh, computationally difficult to do because you need to compare, 27:51 uh, thousands of, uh, sat intervals from a random UTXO sometimes against, uh, hundreds of thousands of, uh, sat intervals from your da- database and figure out where the intersections are so you can get the rare sats that you're interested in. 28:12 So I would say that detecting rare sats is pretty much the hardest and computationally intensive, uh, job that you have to do to, to put up a rare sats marketplace. We're talking like heavy database management. 28:30 Yes. Yes. And a lot of number crunching, number comparing, and that's what you have to do basically whenever your website is accessed, whenever a user logs into its wallet, you have to detect whatever is in there. 28:47 Uh, obviously you need to create very... a very smart caching system so you don't do that every time. 28:56 Um, the, the best thing you could do is perhaps, um, to, to update your caching system as Bitcoin blocks, uh, are mined. So yeah, that, that's the hardest part. 29:11 Then you also have the marketplace part, which, uh, handles the, uh, signatures, the partially signed Bitcoin transactions. 29:21 Um, that's a bit easier to do because, um, a system for that was well established in the early days of Ordinals. So you have the seller that, 29:33 uh, signs, um, transaction with SIGHASH_SINGLE, anyone can pay, which basically says that I will forfeit this UTXO if and only if there is this amount of Bitcoin sent to this address in the future transaction. 29:53 Um, so yeah, you, you save those signatures and those are the listings. 29:59 Uh, then the buyer fulfills that, uh, signature, that transaction, and actually pays the, uh, Bitcoin, and you put everything together and send it to the mempool. 30:11 Then there's also mempool tracking, so you need to be up to speed with everything that happens.Uh, in the mempool. 30:19 So yeah, uh, I could go into [chuckles] much more detail, but I think the, the, the main work you have to do is to detect the rare sats, to have a caching system, and to stay up to speed with the network. 30:38 So let's look at the product side of this. You say, like, the marketplace side. Um, you know, you, you kinda, uh, you earlier said, like, you can't... The, the market kind of has to, to discover what Satoshis are rare. 30:53 It's hard to, like, just, like, launch. Like, you can launch a meme coin, and it's just a bunch of, like, social media shitposting, but in rare sat world, it's kinda like this emergent, like, price discovery. 31:05 How do you think about, uh, delivering these to a marketplace? Like, how do you f- how do you figure out what people want to buy or, like, what even to post? 31:18 Because among 2.1 quadrillion sats and, and an, and an infinite amount of ways to, like, value these, like, what do you... How do you make a decision about the, the product-facing side? 31:32 So I think, I think that's the point. 31:33 I would argue that there isn't an infinite amount of ways to, to value a sat, uh, because I, I think there's a, there's a very finite way to establish which sats have value, and I think that number isn't even large. 31:53 I, I would say that it's probably under 100 categories of rare sats that really have value. Um, and then there are all the rest of the ways that are very subjective. 32:08 So i-i-if a, if a way to assign value to some Satoshis is very subjective, that's not something that would go to the broad market. For example, I might value sats that have my... 32:24 that, that have been minted, uh, when my birthday is, but the next guy wouldn't really care about that. So that, that's a, 32:35 uh, a subjective way to give value to some sats, and that, in my opinion, wouldn't make it to the broad market. Um, so 32:45 for now, we handle these, uh, ways to assign value to Satoshis that, that have objective value or a more objective value. 32:56 For example, it's easy for a whole market to agree that, uh, the s- first sats transacted in first transaction are special 'cause that- that's not very difficult to see. Um- Yeah, it was actually... 33:10 I mean, it's like, I think one of the first things I ever said w- on this topic was like, "Okay," like, "as a hardcore Bitcoiner, I would love, as a collectible, some of the first sats that Satoshi sent to Hal." 33:21 That's just so cool. For sure, yeah. And, I mean, imagine having the first sat ever, like [chuckles]- Yeah... the, the block nine uncommon. 33:31 I'm not sure if that's unlocked or locked forever, but it would be very cool to have that. And I think that pretty much everyone would agree that the first sat in existence has more value than a random sat. 33:47 Um, so yeah, we, we concern ourselves with these categories of Satoshis that, um, that are easily, um, given to the broader market. So everyone agrees in market that they are special. They have value. 34:05 That's what we concern ourselves with, and I believe that, uh, rare sats market stands out because of this. Uh, now, in terms of how we value this, um, that's... That's really not our job. 34:21 Our job is to help the market to value this, and it might be that we create... We generally pioneer the new categories. Uh, but we do have a process for this. So, uh, we do, 34:40 uh, we do talk with, uh, certain people in the market, with, uh, OG users, with people that were, um, in rare sats for a lot of time. 34:51 They d- propose these new categories, and pretty much everyone can propose a new category. 34:58 Uh, and then it's up, up to debate, and we decide together in Discord or, uh, in general in Discord, we have a special channel for this, and we agree or disagree that the new category 35:11 has objective value or doesn't have objective value, and if it does, we launch it. We put it on the website. 35:20 Uh, people who have those sats can already list them, or sat hunters can go to exchanges and adjust their algorithms to also isolate these new categories of sats. 35:36 And then if the market treasures them and people agree that they are desirable and pay a premium for them, um, then it's pretty much all natural from there. So you mentioned... 35:51 You hinted at, like, what I would call maybe, like, the boutique sat market. Like, so there's, you know, people can get the... People can go to Magic Sat or, or other platforms, whatever. Like, you can go buy, 36:04 um, some of the popular Satoshis, uncommons, a rare, uh, pizza sats, or 450X, you know, first transaction sats. 36:14 But, like, you know, you mentioned, like, y- what if you want a sat with your birthday or, or your, or a sat with your name, 'cause you can convert-Um, some of the SAT notation to, like, a word or a name. 36:26 Like, this is an interesting market because there is a... It's kind of a very niche market too, I think, of, like, boutique SATs. Like, we might call them one-of-ones or, like, specific, like, SATs to be hunted. 36:41 How does that even work? Uh, what does that look like? How does someone who wants a SAT with their name on it go about even figuring out how to acquire that? Yeah, for sure. 36:52 It's very interesting market, and we actually have on our roadmap, um, SAT hunter contracting. So basically, what you would need to do is to go in a place and basically place a bounty for 37:11 a specific number of SATs with specific properties. Uh, because those properties might be subjective, they might be valuable only to you. So, SAT hunters in general maybe wouldn't 37:27 bother to extract them because they failed to identify any value in them. But since they have your birthday or, or whatever you value, they might be special to you, so then you go and place a bounty on them. SAT hunters 37:45 that are doing this anyway, uh, w- for the, uh, mainstream categories, would also include in their software, uh, the bounties that are on the website and would basically gather those SAT for you. 38:02 Uh, whenever they finish, they contact the buyer and have the transaction go through Magisat. 38:09 So, uh, that's a very interesting market, and that's something that we want to also cover in the future because it's, it's similar to license plates. 38:21 Like, you might want a license plate with, with Bitcoin, uh, writing Bitcoin on it. But for, I don't know, a very old Wall Street dude, [laughs] it might not be that valuable. So, uh, it's pretty much the same here. 38:40 So, uh, what... So let's just open it up. Like, you know, I- you've been... I said at the top, like, you're, you're a big cheerleader for, like, the rare SATs category, the rare SATs business. Uh, 38:56 I've also been a cheerleader, although I don't talk about it as much 'cause I talk about all things Bitcoin Season 2 related these days. But, like, 39:05 l- give me the Quarry's case, Quarry's bull case for rare SATs over the next, over the coming years. Like, why are rare SATs going to be a major, uh, just a major component of, like, the Bitcoin economy going forwards? 39:24 Well, I will keep this very short because, um, the, the... It's simple. 39:31 So everyone who FUDs rare SATs, uh, or calls it, like, this passing FUD, the only argument they have is that there's not enough liquidity in the market, and that's it. 39:45 I, I never heard another argument for which rare SATs are n- not going to make it other than there's not enough liquidity in the market, which I believe is, yeah, is true. 39:58 Uh, there's not enough liquidity in the market right now, but there's absolutely zero reasons for which this liquidity and the attention that will be, uh, focused on rare SATs wouldn't grow in the future. Because it... 40:15 Th- this is an amazing asset class. Uh, it's an asset that's resistant to grifters. 40:22 You can't really be an influencer and start your own rare SAT category and, um, extract liquidity for the m- from the market with that, because, like, nobody will buy your made-up category. 40:36 Um, this is very easily obtained from the Bitcoin network, easier than inscriptions, because you only need, uh, the first part of the, uh, Ordinals theory conventions, which are also the most easily obtained ones. 40:59 Because I, I would argue they follow O- Occam's razor in the sense that i- it's the simplest way to assign IDs, and this is the simplest way rare SATs can go from one UTXO to another. 41:12 Um, so if our memory gets erased, rare SATs will probably be reinvented in 20 years. 41:19 Uh, and we also have color coins, uh, that were a thing back in 2012, which were pretty much the same thing as, [laughs] as, uh, rare SATs. Very similar. 41:31 So I would say that rare SATs is most definitely something that won't go away. 41:38 You could make the argument that we have runes, uh, which have more liquidity, um, and I believe that's just because, uh, the momentary attention was focused on runes and not on rare SATs, but that is going to change naturally over the years. 41:58 So I am very much not concerned with runes being competition for rare SATs, because in time, rare SATs will prove themselves as the better asset of the two. 42:11 I love your, uh, I love your insight to this, Quarry, and I enjoy, uh, seeing you on the timeline talking about rare SATs. Um, to wrap this up, what's a call to action? Where people, where can people find you? 42:24 Um, where can they dive deeper on the things we talked about today? Uh, where do people find you? Well, I would invite them to go to magisat.io. Uh, we also have a lot of educational material about, uh, rare SATs. 42:40 And aside from this, I am active on Twitter, uh, now on X, um, and my handle is const_quarry. Great. 42:53 Well, thank you so much, Quarry, uh, for joining me, Bitcoin Season 2, and, um, I'm looking forward to, uh, a conversation, uh, later on in the bull market maybe about, uh, reflecting on, uh, where the state of rare SATs are, uh, maybe at the end of 2025. 43:11 Otherwise, thank you so much for coming on Bitcoin Season 2. Thank you so much, Charlie, and as always, it's been a pleasure. 43:18 [outro music]
